Caitlin Moran and Lena Dunham – ‘Girls’ I’m all too familiar with
October 12, 2012 in media representation of black women, white feminism
By Leslie O’Neil
Everyone now knows about the brouhaha regarding celebrity feminist and cultural commentator Caitlin Moran’s tweet regarding Lena Dunham’s “groundbreaking” television show Girls.
If you are unfamiliar with the show, it’s like every other “groundbreaking” television show about women– they are white, live in New York and are wealthy. They have problems that Every Woman In Their Age Group has. No ethnic minority women exist as main characters or indeed as supporting characters other than the most crude of stereotypes. Black men are hot sex partners, scary looking hip teens who turn out to be nice, or grandfatherly old men.
Caitlin Moran’s frankly crass tweet pissed me off, but it didn’t surprise me. Feminism has always excluded black women. I remember when I started going to feminist groups 15 years ago that my issues and struggles weren’t important to them. (When I think about it, they were the most cartoony feminists I’d ever seen. Seriously, it was all lumberjack shirts, Ani DiFranco albums and cats. There was also the requisite feminist man there with his vegan food and sensitive ponytail.)
The group was mainly navel gazing and figuring out how to protest against the “Peach Blossoms,” our university veterans group that turned up at sporting events dressed in silly drag. Our group felt that the Peach Blossoms, with their OTT make up, comedy boobs and plungers full of beer were offensive to women because the group was mainly made up of men. Well, duh, most veterans are men but there were a few biologically female Peach Blossoms as well. I left the group after that. I started thinking that feminism should be renamed “White Women’s Problems.”
Let me be clear: Of course I believe in the ideals of feminism– what’s not to believe in? Body autonomy? Absolutely! From the Hottentot Venus, to the brutal rapes and abuse of black women during slavery and in the Jim Crow era and even now with the highly sexualised image of black women in the media, all black women should care about have autonomy over their own bodies. Equality? Well, yeah– I’m black aren’t I? I know how it feels to be marginalised because of what I look like. That very statement is why I can’t be doing with white feminism.
White women just don’t get it. I’m sorry white ladies, but I don’t give a good goddamn about pink Lego, Barbie or anything like it. I don’t like how everything for girls is becoming overly “princessy”, (shameless blog plug here!), but I knew from the time I was a little girl that being a princess was not open to brown girls like me. To this day, I’m not one for fairytales because no one looked like me and I could not relate to them. I was thrilled when The Princess and The Frog was released and I took my big grown self and my two sons to see the wonderful Tiana.
White feminists are great at taking up certain causes that affect women of colour such as forced marriages, the treatment of women in some Middle Eastern and Asian countries, FGM and the like. How often do you hear them speak out about the fact that black women in the UK and USA have higher rates of maternal and infant mortality; low birth weights and premature births than white women? By virtue of being black, despite my excellent health and middle-class lifestyle, I was automatically classed as a higher-risk during pregnancy than white women. (Don’t get me started on the “special” questions women of colour get asked during their 8 week pregnancy assessment!) What about the fact that black women are going to be the most disadvantaged group when it comes to the drastic cuts this government is making? After all, white feminists, you are in a better position than most to make some real noise about this.
I’m all too familiar with the Lena Dunhams and the Caitlin Morans of the world because I am in contact with them every single day. I work in the media and from the time I was about 20 years old, my social circle has been almost exclusively white. I went from having nothing but black friends when I was in elementary and high school to having one or two black friends when I was in university and after I moved to the UK. I don’t know why this is and to an extent, it bothers me. It’s hard trying to relate your experiences to people who don’t have a clue and don’t really care.
White women like Caitlin Moran and Lena Dunham don’t really like black women all that much. They will scream bloody murder if you bring this up and say “Ohmygod I can’t BELIEVE you would say that to me of all people! We’re friends! I dated that Nigerian guy and like totally loved him! I listen to Bob Marley! I lived in (insert gentrified ethnic area here) for EVER. Your hair is so much better than mine, I can’t understand why black women don’t all wear their hair in naturals/I wish I could do as much with my hair with all the weaves and stuff! I eat curry goat/ collard greens! You’re racist for even saying this!”
Well Miss White Lady, I can and did say this to you. First of all, yes we are friends, but I am sick of being the Safe Negro that you can parade around to your other white friends. I know you do this because you have said to me ‘you’re not like other black people’ and I’m the only black person you talk to or hang out with. You also use me as your passport to diversity. Please stop asking me about soul music; you and I both go to indie gigs. Your taste in black men doesn’t mean you are not a racist. It means you like that particular black man. I eat cauliflower if it has cheese on it; it can go straight to Hell any other time.
You may have lived in Edgy Ethnicland but it’s not like you really interacted with anyone who also lived there. Your neighbours may have been diverse, but it’s not like you got to really know them; you only bragged about living next door to sooo many different races and cultures. Besides, didn’t you move to Lilywhiteshire because of “the schools” and you wanted the best for your children. (Ethnic people never want the best for their children, I suppose.) Oh and stop making big deal of locking your car door when you visit ethnic areas and stop walking down the street like Freddy is going to get you. Black people don’t give a shit about you. We are used to you; most of us feel very uncomfortable when we visit all-white areas.
Get your hands out of my goddamned hair and go pick up a fucking history book. By the way, loads of black women have naturally long and straight hair. It’s not all weaves or wigs.
The reason this type of white woman can literally not give a shit is because they are wrapped in privilege. They flinch when you mention that white women have benefited more from equality programmes people of colour. They come up with bullshit excuses like “well, Lena Dunham is only writing what she know. How could she write about a black character?” Hmm, if she can’t write a decent black character because she is white, then maybe she has no fucking business being a writer. James Patterson, the popular crime fiction writer managed to write a nuanced, flawed but brilliant black character in Alex Cross.
White women, I’m not here to be your Bagger Vance, or your racial conscience. If you are upset that I want no part of your movement, that I will call you on your privilege or that despite your claims to the contrary, your racism, then I could not literally give a shit.
Nicola Mwaniki said on October 12, 2012
This is quite frankly the most ridiculous piece of provocative writing I have ever read.
Let me first state my position: I am for your ‘tick-box’ purposes white. And I would describe myself as ‘anti-feminist’ although the older I get I can’t help but think that it is articles like this that has initially driven me away.
Your ‘wanting no part’ of this area of the feminist movement, because it has been up until now lead by white women, is what divides you. Classing yourself as ‘black’ and a ‘feminist’ is what is stunting your strive for progress just as it is mine.
The princessy point was what first got me. Up until then I was trying to understand your argument. But last week I observed a four year old with her Disney Princesses colouring book. See, Lily is only four but she cares. She took great care and attention as to which of the princesses was pictured, what colour dress they had and….what colour skin they had…shock horror…even Disney has moved on.
If you have a problem with Barbie-type dolls keeping women in their place, you should meet my mother-in-law. There are just as many marginalised African women as there are white women, and some of them chose it.
Which is where your arguement breaks down. What are we fighting for? Black rights or Women’s rights? Or equality for all? Including men?
Obviously you are no longer reading. I have already declared myself to have ‘relatives’ that are of an ethnic minority. Of course, now you think I only try to have an understanding because I married a black man. I am actually proud to say that I live in a diverse area, where my neighbours try to understand each other’s cultures and religions. Yet you hold this against me and put yourself on the pedestal as being my ‘token’ friend. Do me a favour.
I couldn’t care less about your hair. I want to know what is inside you that matters.
See, it is not just black women that have to go through horrendous questions at eight week pregnancy appointments. Are you a feminist? Do you really care what women like me go through? How about answering all those intrusive questions about how many men from an ethnic background you have slept with, or been impregnant by? Try being put into early labour at seven months and still having to declare that yes, my two babies do have the same father as though white women just randomly sleep with every black man that comes around.
If you care about Black rights then you should care about black men and their families. You should care that their mixed-race relationships are marginalised by society and seen by health practitioners in just the same way. Why am I answering questions about diseases thatbare predominantly found in Africa? It is not just colour that causes the necessity of these questions.
To me, this rant you have had could not be worse timed. It is Black History Month and you are telling me to read a history book? I visit the church built by William Wilberforce built. He was white and a man so I guess he had no voice in your book. Read your history and realise that not all white people should be tarred by the same brush.
If you want equality then you need to see everyone’s opinion as equal. Take the chip off of your shoulder. No one can change the past but it takes all of us to change the future. I am not trying to be provocative I am trying to outline my position.
My grandparents were in slavery in the 1950s. I grew up with an ethnic name and prejudice too. Yet I will never allow my sons to see that being non-white means they cannot stand up for any injustice they encounter, whether they are standing up for men or women, black or white. Or anything in between. After all, we are all marginalised on some level.
Sudelicious said on October 12, 2012
Wow, I don’t know where to start….
Firstly, you have chosen to have a relationship with a Black man. The way in which you have been treated during your pregnancy is part of the course for ALL Black women living in this country irrespective of the race of our partners.
Secondly, don’t tell Black women which others groups to worry about. I say this because most White feminist groups do not care about the issues affecting Black women. If you want to do some good, write to Caitlan Moran and tell her to give a damn about the perception/acknowledgement of Black women in media. Black women have by and large kept the Black community ticking over. The Black single mothers who have raised families, the Black women who work in their local communities and churches. If you don’t know this information -go read a book, speak to people in you area. You make yourself sound very uninformed.
Thirdly, it is ridiculous to state that we all suffer from marginalization in the same way. We don’t. The fact that you are totally unaware of this tells me that you have a privilege chip on your shoulder. If you truly do believe that Black and White women have the exact same standing in society, I can only reiterate what the author has said and go read a history book and open your eyes to the reality. We do not live in a post racial or post feminist age that is hokum and until you are prepared to accept that point I can’t take anything that you have said seriously.
elvesandhobbits said on November 27, 2012
Oh my fucking gawwwwd. This comment depressed me. Black feminism for the motherfucking win!!
moiniki said on October 12, 2012
This is quite frankly the most ridiculous piece of provocative writing I have ever read.
Let me first state my position: I am for your ‘tick-box’ purposes white. And I would describe myself as ‘anti-feminist’ although the older I get I can’t help but think that it is articles like this that has initially driven me away.
Your ‘wanting no part’ of this area of the feminist movement, because it has been up until now lead by white women, is what divides you. Classing yourself as ‘black’ and a ‘feminist’ is what is stunting your strive for progress just as it is mine.
The princessy point was what first got me. Up until then I was trying to understand your argument. But last week I observed a four year old with her Disney Princesses colouring book. See, Lily is only four but she cares. She took great care and attention as to which of the princesses was pictured, what colour dress they had and….what colour skin they had…shock horror…even Disney has moved on.
If you have a problem with Barbie-type dolls keeping women in their place, you should meet my mother-in-law. There are just as many marginalised African women as there are white women, and some of them chose it.
Which is where your arguement breaks down. What are we fighting for? Black rights or Women’s rights? Or equality for all? Including men?
Obviously you are no longer reading. I have already declared myself to have ‘relatives’ that are of an ethnic minority. Of course, now you think I only try to have an understanding because I married a black man. I am actually proud to say that I live in a diverse area, where my neighbours try to understand each other’s cultures and religions. Yet you hold this against me and put yourself on the pedestal as being my ‘token’ friend. Do me a favour.
I couldn’t care less about your hair. I want to know what is inside you that matters.
See, it is not just black women that have to go through horrendous questions at eight week pregnancy appointments. Are you a feminist? Do you really care what women like me go through? How about answering all those intrusive questions about how many men from an ethnic background you have slept with, or been impregnant by? Try being put into early labour at seven months and still having to declare that yes, my two babies do have the same father as though white women just randomly sleep with every black man that comes around.
If you care about Black rights then you should care about black men and their families. You should care that their mixed-race relationships are marginalised by society and seen by health practitioners in just the same way. Why am I answering questions about diseases thatbare predominantly found in Africa? It is not just colour that causes the necessity of these questions.
To me, this rant you have had could not be worse timed. It is Black History Month and you are telling me to read a history book? I visit the church built by William Wilberforce built. He was white and a man so I guess he had no voice in your book. Read your history and realise that not all white people should be tarred by the same brush.
If you want equality then you need to see everyone’s opinion as equal. Take the chip off of your shoulder. No one can change the past but it takes all of us to change the future. I am not trying to be provocative I am trying to outline my position.
My grandparents were in slavery in the 1950s. I grew up with an ethnic name and prejudice too. Yet I will never allow my sons to see that being non-white means they cannot stand up for any injustice they encounter, whether they are standing up for men or women, black or white. Or anything in between. After all, we are all marginalised on some level.
Desiree Hingle said on October 12, 2012
^^^Typical answer from a white girl….we’re all in this together mess. WE AREN’T.
Jacque said on October 13, 2012
Love it I’m Arab Jew so they love me too nice and diverse.
Planetcath said on October 13, 2012
I found this post really thought provoking & reminded me of when I got my first job in social work. I was a self identified feminist, working class & full of my own misguided privilege. I thought I knew what racism was (despite being white & never having experienced it) and would proclaim myself a defender of those who were marginalised and excluded. Luckily I had two colleagues, both WoC who educated me. I learnt that my history wasn’t their history. I learnt that I was, in fact, colour blind. I learnt that I was often patronising and presumptive. In short, I had to start again in terms of what I thought I knew.
Now I am much older and more experienced I am always very conscious of my privilege and understand that I cannot speak for anyone else. Ever.
I loved this post. We all need reminding that the feminist movement has a tendancy to focus on white women, and that actually some women don’t want to be part of that. And why should they?
However, I hope that some of us are able to stand behind, or at your side, when needed to add our voice to yours. I think that’s pretty much all I can offer.
moiniki said on October 13, 2012
This is laughable. I have no voice because I am white?
My point is how can anyone call themselves a feminist if they are just fighting for half the female world?
I haven’t asked for sympathy for having married a black man – I am stating that the reason the questions come regarding medical history is genetic. You are correct, I have made my choice to take an African surname and when I submit my CV it is me that gets discriminated not names like O’Neil.
Maybe I did sound uninformed. I was too busy trying to rush off to pick up the kids. But I am pretty certain I have read more books on African history than you have and the best thing is I don’t limit my reading so that I have a one-sided warped view of life.
I have never read a single word written by Caitlin Moran, bar the quotes that have been in the media this week, so I think I would be the wrong person to approach her. I do, however, feel she has been made a scapegoat. She has popularised modern feminism and is now being punished for exactly that. People have decided she is a villain because she can’t be bothered to fight the race issue, when in fact this discussion alone proves that even if she did she would just be told that her privileged position of being white meant her thoughts were worthless.
it seems there is a danger in trying to fight two corners when neither of them are being considered carefully. If you are trying to fight for female rights then you need to fight for all women. If you want to fight for black rights, you need to fight for all black people. If, on the other hand you want to just fight for a better position for only black females then you can’t help but find yourself marginalised – it is the position you have chosen.
Quite frankly, the comment by Desiree Hingle is the kind of racist bile that is the disease to this society.
lame said on October 19, 2012
“I have made my choice to take an African surname and when I submit my CV it is me that gets discriminated not names like O’Neil.” Incredible. She admits that black people (and so obviously black women) are disadvantaged and discriminated in the against in the workforce despite trying to argue all races of women are going through the same troubles, tries to make a black woman feel guilty for having a more ethnically ambiguous surname than herself, and pats herself on the back for being white and having being so brave as to take an African surname in marriage (oh, what a martyr!) when the black people actually born into the name have little choice over whether or not they experience that prejudice. Clearly we are not all one. Pathetic
moiniki said on October 13, 2012
I didn’t, may I add, say that black and white people have the same place in society or that we are all in this together. I stated that I had suffered discrimination, worse than many black people I know, and yet I will not let it become the focus of my life.
Sudelicious said on October 13, 2012
Once again you have contradicted yourself and make yourself sound really ignorant.
Ok so Black women have to fight for all Black people. ( which we do with Doreen Lawrence being an excellent example) but White feminists such as Ms Moran don’t have to fight for all women? You have not suffered more racism than Black people. You haven’t so please you need to stop with the pity party. This is Black people’s daily reality no Black person needs to tell you of their daily struggle after all you won’t help so it would be a futile exercise.
Your brushes with racism do not make your an expert on it. It’s like a stay at home day telling a woman that he understands completely the female struggle because he is a primary career for his children. You would consider him ignorant and misguided. That’s exactly how you sound. You do not have to focus on racism every day of your life because you do not encounter it everyday of your life. It is arrogant to talk about something from a position of authority which you clearly do not understand.
moiniki said on October 13, 2012
Do you know me? Then how on earth can you tell me what my struggles with xenophobic issues are?
Really, I would love to know how exactly you feel I have contradicted myself but I am pretty certain it is a case of you not reading correctly and jumping to conclusions. I read the post because I was genuinely intrigued by the cause and my hope in life is that no person shall be born into an unjust world.
Then I read the Black Feminist manifesto. Even the BNP doesn’t have a colour exclusion clause. Modern-day Black Panthers, eh?
Please, don’t call yourself feminists. You are only fighting the cause of black women and you are fighting against white women. No true feminist would ever do that.
Sudelicious said on October 13, 2012
You don’t know me either. Why would you assume that I follow the Black Feminist manifesto or that I am not interested in helping people of other races or genders. You stated that Black women are only interested in their own issues. Do you know every Black woman on the earth. Thought not. You don’t get to decide what I label myself. Xenophobia is different from racism. If you don’t get that you shouldn’t be talking about issues of race as though you are an expert. It is this condescending attitude that riles a lot of Black feminists. I have previously explained how you have contradicted yourself feel free to re read.
Sudelicious said on October 13, 2012
Wanted to change some full stops for question marks but my iPad is being difficult. Hey I am sure you get the general gist.
Charmaine said on October 13, 2012
Nicola M,
It’s hard to believe you are real. Whether you are or not, just in case anyone else thinks you have a modicum of a point, I’m going to respond point by point so we’re clear on just how wrong I think you are.
I’m a black woman and feminist as well as many other things. You have identified yourself as white and anti-feminist.
Leslie didn’t say the feminist movement was led by white women now or that it ever has been. The feminist movement dates back a long way, and one of the key moments in the emergence of what we now know as the feminist movement was the black liberation struggle. White feminists took cue from black people who were struggling for freedom. Angela Davis’ book, Women, Race and Class documents this well. It’s here as a download for free – http://www.scribd.com/doc/64497626/Women-Race-and-Class-Angela-Y-Davis
This idea that we are being unique in creating divisions because we are calling ourselves black feminists doesn’t follow logically because in most parts of the world that I know of people routinely describe and refer to themselves and others according to ethnicity. If we can’t use the term ‘black’ to talk about our feminism, why should use it to talk about anything else? Black hair, black history. etc…. Why use any word to describe anything? Why don’t we all just walk around calling ourselves ‘beings’. Because it matters, doesn’t it? Race matters, as does gender, and ability and age and lots of other ways that people find to oppress and discriminate. We are highlighting that we recognise this in using the term black in our feminism. Why should everyone else be able to call us black and we not? That is just silly. If YOU feel divided from us because we recognise that race matters and call ourselves black, that is YOUR decision to separate. I would suggest that you make efforts to remove that barrier or ask for help in it rather than accuse us of causing it. You caused it. I don’t feel separate from you because you make it clear that you’re any of the things that you identified yourself as that I am not (except anti-feminist, but I don’t wish to have connection with anti-feminists anyway, and I’m happy to be divided there).
There are many marginalised African women. All the black feminists i know care about that. Some of the feminists who are not black care about it, too, but not all unfortunately. This partly underlines why black feminism is important. In fact, as black feminists are concerned with all women, I would like a move to see what we know as black feminism synonymous with feminism, and ‘feminism’ that as not intersectional called non-intersectional feminism, if it’s semantics you’re getting at. OUR intersectional feminism IS feminism. Any other type of feminism is NOT feminism and should be highlighted as such, with absurd terms just like ‘non-intersectional feminism’ or ‘I-only-care-about-me feminism’.
We recognise that sexism and racism and other prejudice damages society. As men, and white people are part of society we recognise that they are impacted, too. So, in fighting to address this damage we are, logically, fighting for a better world for all. However, it doesn’t make sense to fight for equality of people who are advantaged. It makes sense to fight for equality of those who are disadvantaged. There is lots that advantaged groups can do to help and when they do we are happy. When they do not we try to point out how it would be helpful for them to recognise and address their privilege.
I don’t think anyone on here has held the locale you live in, nor your choice of partner against you. I’d go as far to say that they don’t care and they wouldn’t ever comment on it unless you solicited comment, which you have done.
The reference to hair is a well-known one among many black women because we have suffered the indignity of having our hair, and other body parts, touched, inspected and remarked upon for it’s blackness by white people.
I assume black women are also asked about the origin of their sexual partners, because I’m black and I have been asked that question, and it’s not because my travel records are in my medical file. I’d love to say that black women are never interrogated on the number of men with whom they have had children, but it would be silly to suggest that given the racist stereotype that we are prone to do just that and the bigoted opinion that is somehow morally wrong because a woman’s womb must be cleft lifelong to one man.
Your approach has not encouraged compassion, but I do care about peri-natal services that women experience. Leslie, however, does not have a duty of care to you, so if she doesn’t care about what you endured, that’s not racist, it’s personal (to you).
I think you are making the assumption that the black women on here and that identify as black feminists do not have relationships with partners who are not black. That is not true and betrays you as ignorant.
William Wilberforce played an important role in the abolition of slavery, but I think you are bringing him into the conversation because he is white. As usual with discussions about the abolition of slavery, the people who were impacted directly in a disadvantageous way are not mentioned, as though they just sat there and waited for white men to save them. Taking that approach does not help your argument that you are not racist because you are doing so well at mimicking just what racists do.
Conversations about black feminism and the fight for equality are always well-timed.
Everyone can have an opinion. Everyone’s opinion is not of the same quality on every topic – that is the issue here.
Unfortunately many of us are marginalised on some level. Some of us are marginalised on many levels. That’s why women like Caitlin Moran should ascribe to real feminism and not her marginalised pretense.
Of course you do limit your reading otherwise you would probably still be on the same shelf you started on at age 10. You clearly DO discriminate on which books you will and will not read, it would just be unmanageable otherwise. I’m not sure you have read more books on African history because I don’t know how many books either of you have read, but I’d say how you read them is important. If you think African women are choosing to be marginalised, then you might find the perspective from the Angela Davis book refreshing – making choices out of a small range of choices that are presented as no choice, really isn’t a choice. People who are well-adjusted generally do not choose to live in hostile situations knowing there is a better alternative. It’s sexist and racist to suggest African women have some kind of wish to do so.
I don’t think CM has popularised modern feminism. I don’t even recognise it as feminism and I’m fairly sure it has put quite a few people off feminism because they think CM’s is the real thing.
I rather think the issues have not ben considered carefully by YOU. Black feminism does not want a better situation only for black females. That’s just silly. We are fighting for black women to be recognised so that their concerns that are specific to them, are recognised. We join forces with all movements who are struggling for equality.
Charmaine said on October 13, 2012
Comparing the safe space for black women with a racist political party that wants political power to take part in the representation of British people and forward the agenda of racism is a bad one.
Minority groups are well-advised to come together to fight the injustices against them. At times – for some it will be frequently or the majority of the time, and for others it will be less frequently – they are advised to involve everyone in the initiative.
Suggesting, which I think you are Nicola M, that members of a minority groups should not be able to organise sounds like a dictatorship. Very Scary Indeed. Very Handmaid’s Tale.
moiniki said on October 13, 2012
Okay, Charmaine, at least you have tried to put an eloquent response. I don’t agree and still insist my comments have been completely misunderstood. But I can’t help but think that was what was intended, by the reader(s).
The fact that I am not even being considered as real is again laughable. I really, truly want to engage in this debate but I am being attacked because you don’t want to understand me.
I did not identify myself as anti-feminist. It is the box I have always put myself in. The older I have become the more I realise I have causes that I believe are true to fiminism. I have a degree in cultural studies and fuck me, ninety per cent of the lecturers would not let me pass an essay if it wasn’t full of past essays that weren’t radical bullshit forty years ago.
I will actually take your reading recommendation on board. I may not get around to it yet, it is not a priority. But actually, this is not condescending, if you feel it is an important text that I should read before I embark on another discussion on this forum I will take a look. I did, however, learn in my feminist studies that relying on a single text is never the way forward.
I have been told that I am contradicting myself but this arguement does not stand when I see these black feminist rally calls. I am not saying you can’t represent your people whether black or female. I am saying that neither of those should discriminate against whites or males or else they are failed manifestoes. Call yourself black, call yourself a feminist, but live by those virtues, too.
If black feminists can’t care about all feminists then they are not feminists. And the contradi tion you are not observing is that often black women are not feminists, quite the opposite.
Black feminists are a contradiction. What happens when black men have equal standing to white men, and black women to white women? Who do you support then? If you fight for equality then you have to fight every cause at the same time.
I apologise for stating that I am white or that I am in a mixed-race relationship. I personally believe that context is important and I would hate you to think that I would have mentioned it for any other reason.
The hair comment: really? By me? No, then you are making racist comments.
If that is your opinion on a woman’s womb then those type of questions cannot harm you. An accusation of sleeping around will not harm someone that holds a view that men will never possess their sexuality.
I have never asked Leslie to care about my prenatal care. She looked for others to show an interest in her experience. I just wanted to outline that it was not just African that had intrusive questions, it is women in general.
The next paragraph I cannot even reply to. I know only one person involved in this forum and as a black woman I have never known of her being in any relationship other than that of with a caucasian man. You are again making assumptions. Call me ignorant all you like, bt that comment alone proves yours.
The William Wilberforce comment is again laughable. So, because I didn’t mention Equiano I am racist. I mentioned him because he is an important member of my community which has every nation under the sun living side-by-side in harmony and that includes privileged black families and disadvantaged white families. (I count myself as neither, before you jump on that bandwagon).
Maybe ‘well-timed’ but ‘badly put’.
Again, my opinion count for nothing because I am white. Racism again.
Why is Caitlin Moran being made a scapegoat? Again, if she had said she did give a damn about black issues she would have been shot down. Take a look at Midsummer Murders. You add an Asian family in and you are accused of making it token. You are damned if you do, damned if you….
Actually, your next paragraph intrigues me. I say again I do read a lot and also will not limit myself. I do not want you to judge or accuse me of not reading wholly. Actually, I love the idea that I could change African women’s perspective and that their choices are sometimes limited against their (unknown) wishes (please, do not jump on this – I am taking this as a positive look at how I can improve the thoughts of those around me). Being anti-feminist does not mean people live in hostile environments. Some people enjoy being passive to the dominant male.
The are many strands of feminism but to accuse Moran as not being a feminist and yourself as one is hugely unjust. Ignorant, one might say but I will not use that word without knowing you fully.
I. Get. It. Unless I am not a black woman my opinions do not matter.
greendoondoon said on October 14, 2012
First of all, i’m not African. I’m not West Indian either. I am black American or “Tesco Value Black” as I like to call it. So please, don’t assume. Secondly, I am in a mixed-race relationship and have dated a lot more white men than I have black men, simply because my social circle is white. My husband is so white he is practically see-through. However, our 11 year relationship does not give him a passport into what it’s like to be black. He would not be so arrogant and frankly stupid to even say some stupid shit like that.
You don’t know my life. You don’t know what it’s like to be a black woman in America nor do you know what it it’s like to be a black woman in the UK. The racism is very different on both continents.
You’re right, you have probably read more books about Africa (all 53 countries?) than I have. Hell,
if you’ve read one book on Africa, that’s more than I’ve read. Africa isn’t my focus. I don’t have any interest in going there nor researching any “roots” there. I’m perfectly happy with my identity as a black American woman. All those books you read mean the sum total of fuck all to me. You reading is no substitute for my very real experiences.
There are so many contradictions, non sequiturs and word salad coming from you that I feel like I have Mitt Romney talking in one ear and Sarah Palin in the other. The thing is, you seem to think I am talking about all white women when I am talking about a specific sort. It is obvious that you fall into the camp I wrote about. I have plenty of white female friends that I care a great deal about. They come from various different social strata. They recognize their privilege and would not dare try to engage in Oppression Top Trumps such as you have. You have not experience more discrimination than most black people you know. What has happened is that every time one of your black associates tried to relate an incident that happened to them, you raced in with your tale of woe, some whitesplaining or whatabouttery. Your black friends have just stopped talking to you about their experiences because you don’t listen. I know this because I know people like you and I’ve done it to them.
You claim to have never read a word that Caitlin Moran wrote, have not read her book and didn’t read her tweet yet you rush in, spurs janglin’, to defend her and claim she is being scapegoated. You lost all credibility right there.
In closing, I’d like to send you £5. Please accept my money and go buy some cream to alleviate the butthurt you suffer from.
Tamara said on October 15, 2012
What I’ve learned from reading this exchange:
If I had read this years ago I would never have become a feminist as it is so full of bile and people deliberately disagreeing and refusing to try to see each other’s point of view.
I’m afraid it seems that if you are not Black you have no right to speak and your opinion is shallow. What a shame that is, as it separates women. Surely there are enough issues in feminism that different women can worry about different things? Don’t care about Pink Lego, fine, don’t care, but don’t denigrate those women who do – it’s just a different thread of a huge tapestry of racism and sexism. But I feel like if I don’t do your brand of feminism then it’s wrong. And if I care about it, but am the wrong race it is still denigrated as I can’t understand. If I was a white woman, I would feel I could do nothing as, on here, they have been ridiculed and caricaturised for not caring, trying to care but not understanding – which they can never do, for trying to understand through research. I don’t understand the need to be so dismissive of any of the threads; there’s enough work for all of us.
There are so many different brands of feminism too, from ‘do me feminists’ to radical liberation feminism, and some I agree with and some I don’t. Caitlin Moran, whether you like her feminism or not, has put it back on the table in the popular media. I work with young women and I like that there is a text that has the protagonist standing on a table shouting ‘I’m a feminist’ in her teens because so many girls still want to say, ‘I’m not a feminist’. She isn’t on the far edge, but she would be a hell of a better starting place than this blog which would only disempower almost every girl in my class. They might become feminists you would ‘approve’ of, but they aren’t there yet. She’s also funny which makes her approachable, this piece is everything that makes people say that feminists have no sense of humour and are angry bitches. If you have this much contempt for women who don’t do feminism the way you want, how do you speak to people who aren’t even trying to be part of the discussion?
Listen, I won’t get mad because you don’t want to work against Princess Pink and I’ll respect the work you want to do, because, ultimately, there is enough work for us all, and what inspires some women to join in the fight is different from what moves others. But denigrating each other only makes the patriarchy powerful.
Steffi said on October 15, 2012
Well, I am a white feminist and I can honestly say I have never seen such denial of black women’s experience by white feminists commenting on this blog. You all seem to think that your ‘right on’ credentials give you the right to weigh into a black feminist’s perfectly legitimate anger at the white feminist movement, which does indeed ignore black women’s experiences – experiences that they have every single day of their lives. Instead of going into defence mode, why don’t you just listen to what is being said? And, the next time you are at a feminist conference or gathering, take a look around you and see how many black women are present and how many are on the panels. And while you are at it, check out how many working class or disabled women, of whatever colour, either attend events or speak at them. Meanwhile, although my experience of discrimination is completely different from a black woman’s discrimination, I do share a real frustration that the only voices that ever seem to be heard are white, middle class, university educated – and in my recent experience – relatively young women. Caitlin Moran, who I regard as a mainstream feminist at best, is the perfect example of a woman so steeped in her own privilege that she is arrogant enough to dismiss the struggles of other women just because they are outside her experience. A real feminist would never make such a comment, because a real feminist does not think of just herself, but attempts to understand – and yes listen – to other women, and recognises their struggles under patriarchy as being as legitimate as her own.
Celia said on October 16, 2012
As another white-as-snow feminist (got linked here from the F-Word blog), I must agree with Steffi here. I don’t see this blog post as trying to say that white women’s voices are “worthless” or that there’s no need for black women to care about issues that affect white women. It’s simply about recognising that some people have more of an idea about these issues than others.
Of course, I do recognise the scope for getting extremely butthurt if you think you’ve been called racist. After all, most people say, racists are bad people – and I’m not bad, I’m nice! But this is an issue that’s entirely the responsibility of the white person getting offended. Black people aren’t obliged to modify themselves to make everyone else comfortable. Also, it’s occasionally necessary for everyone to look at themselves and silently ask “Am I a bad person?” Or, at least “Is this particular accusation accurate in any way?” Which I know is painful and horrible, especially if the answer is a definite “yes”. But it’s a small step in the right direction.
Tamara said on October 16, 2012
Glad you get to decide who a ‘real feminist’ is. That’s not superior at all.
Ashley said on October 16, 2012
To be fair, how are you a feminist if the only equality that matters is the equality of women like you? If you can’t be assed to care about the problems of all women, as this is the job of feminism — to make ALL women equal — then I would dare say you (general you) are not a real feminist. You’re a feminist in name, but not in action. To me, that’s like a black person advocating for civil rights but only for black people who share their dark complexion, not those light-skinned black people who they don’t share m/any experiences with.
Tamara said on October 22, 2012
I think anyone who fights their corner is a feminist. I’m by no means saying only my brand matters, but that I can’t fight every type, and if I tried I would be ridiculed in the same way the women at the beginning of this piece are ridiculed. Anyone getting to decide who is a feminist and who isn’t by their rule is wrong. I’m reminded of when the Cosby show came out and the African American community trashed it for being too ‘white’. Their rule was the only rule. I don’t doubt that the woman who wrote this is a committed feminist. I don’t doubt that Moran is. I don’t doubt that either of these two women are any less feminists because they aren’t also complaining that Girls doesn’t represent disabled women – or disabled women who are non-white, or disabled, Islamic women who are Arabic.
I don’t equate feminism with only those women who ask the same questions I do. But I do get annoyed when people equate feminism with only their versions.
Murjana said on October 16, 2012
“if you’ve read one book on Africa, that’s more than I’ve read. Africa isn’t my focus. I don’t have any interest in going there nor researching any “roots” there. I’m perfectly happy with my identity as a black American woman. ”
Ouch. No need to trash Africa to get your point across. Damn. We get you don’t want anything to do with Africa no one was telling you to. Plus reveling in the fact you’ve never read a book on Africa is really ignorant. Its just general knowledge.
Signed Black British woman
Tamara said on October 16, 2012
Thank you Murjana. I wonder how offensive Greendoondoon’s comment is? Is it that less offensive than Moran’s? She just negated the experience of all African women because it’s not her deal. Why is she allowed that, but Moran isn’t?
Murjana said on October 17, 2012
To be fair Tamara she isn’t negating the experience of all African women, since her point was not about that. However trying to express how much Africa is not on your radar to the point that you refuse to read a book or article on it( no ones told you to go back to your “roots”- what a hideous thing to say ) and saying so in the same vain that Caitlin Moron’s comment was is truly bizarre.
Look at me I have no black Friends
Look at me I only date White Dudes
Look at me my kids are mixed race
Look at me Don’t tell me a thing about Africa( I don’t even want to look at it!!!! Yep I will ignore a whole continent because nah nah nah nah thats’ really cool)
Imagine saying I’ve never read one article/ book set in/about Europe/The Americas. Nothing economic/art/sociological Look how groovy i am!
Are you aware of how you come across????
Natalie said on October 19, 2012
Just to remind you of the beginning of Tamara’s original post:
“If I had read this years ago I would never have become a feminist as it is so full of bile and people deliberately disagreeing and refusing to try to see each other’s point of view.”
Are you aware of how the end of your last post is coming across?
helenalexlo said on October 19, 2012
This blog post is really interesting reading this and the comments are too. One thing I don’t understand in the post is the treatment of Lena Dunham’s comment about not being able to write a black character/ and how if she can’t do that she can’t be a very good writer, and an example is given of the character of Alex Cross by James Patterson. This is fair to some extent, but I have trouble with it because what Dunham was actually saying was that the story in Girls is autobiographical and each character reflected part of her, where as the character Alex Cross is from a crime fiction novel and not ‘part of’ James Patterson’s life experiences.
The second crux of the arguments in the post and the comments seems to be saying that a white woman couldn’t possibly presume to know about black women’s experiences, greendoondoon says “you don’t know my life.”
So could this not be a sentiment that effected Dunham’s line of thought? I’m not saying this to defend Dunham but we have to think about what she was setting out to do and the limits of that, I think all new things in the media in a TV, book or whatever ought to be scrutinized but the expectations laid at the feet of this one TV show seem incredibly high. I hope that if people watch it, they will be critical and thinking, they will see it for what it is, I don’t think people would watch one tv show and think ‘this is all the feminism there is out there’. I do understand that the sits atop of mountain of frustration with feminists, or the white feminist movement but this show doesn’t represent everything.
Neorice (@Neoriceisgood) said on October 22, 2012
“Hmm, if she can’t write a decent black character because she is white, then maybe she has no fucking business being a writer. ” Hahahah, I love this quote. Nice blogpost.